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TOPIC: New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It

New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368802

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Like I said marriage is inherently a religious term that has been inappropriately adopted by the state. I think the proper solution is to eliminate it from the legal lexicon entirely.But I think there is something to be said for marriage being traditionally between a man and a woman. This is probably the most sacred institution that has ever existed in man kind. If you are secular, and such as myself, you understand that as a species reproduction is the whole ball game. Marriage is part of that. It is not just a matter of civil rights. Show me the piece of paper that says civil marriage ought to be redefined as a civil union and that both heterosexual and homosexual couples can apply for civil union licenses and I'll sign it. However I have to say that the more I think about it the more I am still apprehensive of redefining the word marriage. We're not just redefining a term, we're redefining an entire institution and tradition. Words have meaning and we should not be so frivolous in the redefinition of them. Traditions are important. Even if they are broken all the time, they still hold importance and we should honor that.And for the record, I'm not a bigot, and I'm not a homophobe. And I hate to pull the "I have a gay friend" card, but n fact this weekend I'm going to my gay friends college graduation party. I was one of the first people he ever came out to in high school. I think of him as an equal and treat him as such. This has nothing to do with "ewww butsechs"
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368810

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The notion that marriage is a term monopolized by religion is totally bogus.Marriage has been redefined SEVERAL times throughout history and has meant different things to different cultures. In medieval France, men used to marry each other, for example.The definition of "traditional, biblical marriage" is as follows:- One man- MANY women- of the same race- not for love, but for the transfer of property and cementing of political alliances- with the women treated as inferior and having no rights of their ownNONE of that original Christian definition exists any more.That said, I do agree with just calling all of this stuff civil unions.Ironically, however. That would probably have EVEN LESS support than same sex marriage, because then it would be recast by the bigots as completely destroying their tradition instead of redefining it.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368811

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Reffy;368802 wrote:
But I think there is something to be said for marriage being traditionally between a man and a woman. This is probably the most sacred institution that has ever existed in man kind. If you are secular, and such as myself, you understand that as a species reproduction is the whole ball game. Marriage is part of that. It is not just a matter of civil rights.
What about the gay couples raising the kids you heterosexuals don't give a crap about or can't care for themselves? Gay families need gay marriage too. Reproduction doesn't work when biological mothers and fathers can't be bothered to take care of their spawn. We serve as much of an important role as anyone else.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368831

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Burr;368810 wrote:
The notion that marriage is a term monopolized by religion is totally bogus.Marriage has been redefined SEVERAL times throughout history and has meant different things to different cultures. In medieval France, men used to marry each other, for example.The definition of "traditional, biblical marriage" is as follows:- One man- MANY women- of the same race- not for love, but for the transfer of property and cementing of political alliances- with the women treated as inferior and having no rights of their ownNONE of that original Christian definition exists any more.That said, I do agree with just calling all of this stuff civil unions.Ironically, however. That would probably have EVEN LESS support than same sex marriage, because then it would be recast by the bigots as completely destroying their tradition instead of redefining it.
I'm not religious at all, my reference has nothing to do with biblical tradition. I am instead talking about overall human tradition. Marriage between men and women, for humans as a species seems to be utterly universal. Polygamy is interesting, but I currently do not have a major problem with it as long as those involved are above the age of consent. When I talk about reproduction I am talking about exactly that. I have no problem with homosexual couples raising children. I don't think that they will make them gay or anything like that, and I think that a healthy child can surely be raised by a homosexual couple. What I am referring to is the actual process of reproduction, the human tradition of reproduction if you will. I may be inaccurate, but I dont think I am, when I say that one of the things that unites almost all humans and societies is the tradition of marriage and reproduction within that institution of marriage. I just can't over look that.As a disclaimer I honestly havent really done any research into the claims I'm making. I never really considered it all that important whether marriage was defined or not. Pragmatically I have always concluded that its more important that gay people are given equal rights.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368835

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Reffy;368831 wrote:
I'm not religious at all, my reference has nothing to do with biblical tradition. I am instead talking about overall human tradition. Marriage between men and women, for humans as a species seems to be utterly universal. Polygamy is interesting, but I currently do not have a major problem with it as long as those involved are above the age of consent.
Thing is, there's nothing human about applying specific rights to marriage within the government and then denying an entire chunk of the nation with a certain sexual preference those very rights.I just think it's ridiculous to assume some sort of unbreakable sanctity in marriage when it's been modified so heavily over the years. And while it'd be nice for marriage to separate from the state like it should be, it's more likely for homosexuality to be declared unconstitutional by congress than it is for marriage to be thrown out of state law completely. So unfortunately, though we'd like to have Civil Union be the title applied, marriage is going to have be modified once more.And honestly, I can't think of a reason why this argument is anything other than "Get over it".
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368838

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That "tradition" is an overrated one as well and not nearly as universal as assumed. The notion that it takes both a father and mother to raise a child is actually a fairly modern, Western concept. Back in the day the men would knock the women up, go hunting and pretty much not care for the kids at all. The women would all work together to raise the children amongst themselves, and only when it came time for the son to come of age would the men really get involved. You still see this to some extent in many cultures today. To continue to hold some people hostage just because of some idealized notion that never completely materialized in reality is the height of absurdity.Quite frankly I don't care if some people's fantastical sensibilities are offended a little bit in this modern time. That's nothing compared to the centuries of violent oppression people like me have had to deal with. Save your laments for Sunday sermons, not legislative sessions.(not directed at you Reffy, but those you are playing devil's advocate for)I should also add that if marriage is REALLY about reproduction, then everyone who is married and refuses to or cannot have children should have their licenses revoked. The elderly should not be allowed to marry/re-marry either.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368844

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Reffy;368802 wrote:
However I have to say that the more I think about it the more I am still apprehensive of redefining the word marriage. We're not just redefining a term, we're redefining an entire institution and tradition. Words have meaning and we should not be so frivolous in the redefinition of them. Traditions are important. Even if they are broken all the time, they still hold importance and we should honor that.
That's a quaint outlook on the matter, but marriage is rapidly becoming a joke.People who get divorced in under a year should get audited, then let's see how many people start taking it seriously.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368880

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I don't buy into the whole marriage is about reproduction argument. I know during the ceremony I didn't vow to reproduce with my wife. Marriage is about sharing your life with someone else. Whether times are good or bad.. happy or saa-ad.. sorry, love that song. This will kind of skew the topic a bit more, reproduction isn't about having kids. Reproducing is what spiders do, have millions of offspring and hope a 1/3 of them survive. My wife and I have 2 children, I feel our primary task is to ensure that we raise well adjusted, well prepared, caring adults. To bring it back, gay couples should be able to adopt, there are countless children out there looking for someone to care for them. It is irresponsible not to afford them every opportunity to be part of a caring family regardless of the sexual orientation of the parents.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368904

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I'm just happy we were able to have a pretty intelligent debate over the Internet about gay marriage. yay us.I almost want blackwolf to lock this so I can revel in it before hewhoshallnotbenamed comes in and fucks it all up. Thats right. I'm starting that. Right now.
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New Poll Finds More Americans Support Gay Marriage Than Oppose It 10 years 5 months ago #368923

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Yep, no harm no foul here, far as I'm concerned (although looking back, I do see where I started to get a bit heated up :p). I guess the best way to summarize my concerns over the term is intentionality. So long as it's not a situation where legislators and their constituents are dangling the term like the proverbial carrot on the stick and saying "whoa, ho, ho...you'll get your rights, but you'll never get this!" I don't have much of a problem with it. Many people that I have spoken with who are far more personally affected by such legislation have told me that they don't really give a damn what it's called, so long as they receive the rights afforded by it.I'm an admitted hippie sonofabitch though, who likes to exercise his right to bitch and moan, even if (almost) everyone seemingly gets what they want.
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